At what address is the Vatican exhibition held. Exhibition “Roma aeterna

One of the main exhibitions of this year opens on November 25 in the Engineering Building of the Tretyakov Gallery. Director of the Tretyakov Gallery Zelfira Tregulova tells about the joint project of the Vatican Museums and the Tretyakov Gallery "Roma Aeterna. Masterpieces of the Vatican Pinakothek".

The exhibition "Roma Aeterna. Masterpieces of the Vatican Pinakothek" opens a month before Christmas. For you, as the director of the Tretyakov Gallery, which aspect of this exhibition is the most important: political, religious, cultural?

Zelfira Tregulova: Artistic, of course. I can only confirm the words of the director of the Vatican Museums, Antonio Paolucci: never from the collections of the Vatican Pinakothek were simultaneously sent to the exhibition at once 42 masterpieces of this level. Of course, this is an unprecedented gesture, testifying to the relationship of trust that has developed between Russia and the Vatican, the Vatican Museums and the Tretyakov Gallery at a very difficult moment for the whole world.

And indeed, each of the works, ranging from "the most popular angels of Rome" Melozzo da Forli and up to "Lamentation" by Giovanni Bellini and "Place in the Coffin" by Caravaggio, is significant for the Pinakothek collection. These are textbook works that have been replicated on postcards, posters, in many catalogs ... But seeing them with your own eyes is a completely different matter. Sergei Tchoban built the architecture of the central exhibition hall so that it would repeat the outline of the famous square in front of St. Peter's Basilica with Bernini's colonnade. And on the site of the facade of the cathedral there is a showcase with two early grisailles by Raphael, which were created for the altar of the church in Perugia. Therefore, the viewer finds himself in the center of the semicircle, at the point from where the spaces of paintings by Raphael, Correggio, Paolo Veronese, Caravaggio, Poussin, Guercino, Guido Reni open up ...

Antonio Paolucci said that the Tretyakov Gallery received almost all the works it asked for.

Zelfira Tregulova: Quite right. In December 2015, we had our last meeting at the Vatican on the composition of the exhibition. We were to be given an answer, which things from our list are ready to provide, and which they cannot. We sat in a relatively small office and listened with bated breath as Monsieur Corignani, the head of the exhibitions department, going through the list where the works were going in chronological order, said "Si" or "No". On reaching The Place in the Coffin by Caravaggio, he made a long dramatic pause. And before that there was already "Si" about the painting "Lamentation of Christ" by Giovanni Bellini. And Arkady Ippolitov and I, the curator of the exhibition, and I literally froze: on the one hand, it is unlikely that there would be "Yes" again, and on the other hand, there is no such pause before "No". And he says "Si". And we start screaming with happiness.

Never before from the collections of the Vatican Pinakothek were simultaneously sent to the exhibition at once 42 masterpieces of this level

The name of the project Roma Aeterna, that is, "Eternal Rome", refers to antiquity. One of the most important topics that arises in connection with Rome is, naturally, a very productive dialogue between antiquity and Christian art. Was she important to you?

Zelfira Tregulova: Of course. This is one of the main themes of the exhibition.

But in the works it is not. The earliest work in the exhibition is the 12th century icon of the Roman school "Blessing Christ". Meanwhile, the Vatican Museums have a splendid collection of antique art. Did you want to ask for some work for the exhibition?

Zelfira Tregulova: We thought about it, but then we decided that we would focus on painting. As for the connection with antiquity, it is not by chance that Dante chooses the great Virgil as his guide to the afterlife. Incidentally, it is in his "Aeneid" that the idea of ​​eternal Rome received its poetic foundation. Virgil's works were copied in medieval monasteries in Europe. Christianity acted as the heir to ancient culture, opposing itself to the barbarians who smashed the "idols". I'm not even talking about the fact that Michelangelo called himself "a student of the Belvedere torso."

But at the exhibition this topic went into "subtext"?

Zelfira Tregulova: If we consider the brilliant review of the history of the collections of the Vatican Museums, written for the catalog by Arkady Ippolitov, as a "subtext", then yes. We did not begin to directly confront the ancient monuments, which are in the Vatican Museums, with the later picturesque masterpieces. But the curious viewer will find traces of fascination with antiquity, as well as bizarre reminiscences of Gothic art even in the works of artists of the XIV-XV centuries. In addition, the idea of ​​"eternal Rome" was borrowed by Christian Rome ...

Another promising theme is the relationship between the Byzantine and Western Christian traditions in European art ...

Zelfira Tregulova: It is not by chance that we begin the exhibition with an icon from the 12th century of the Roman school, in which this Byzantine tradition is felt. But at the same time, we do not accentuate the peculiarities of iconography or the interpretation of a particular religious subject in the paintings of European masters, because, in my opinion, projects of this kind are not about what separates us, but about what unites.

We have brought the greatest works created by artists in the framework of the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, but speaking in a language that is understandable to all mankind. That is why we, together with the Vatican Embassy in Moscow, also invite heads and representatives of various confessions to the opening. Because the exhibition is addressed to everyone.

Yes, almost all works were created for monasteries, cathedrals ... For example, the angels of Melozzo da Forlì decorated the dome of one of the Roman churches at one time. And yet the artists solved not only the tasks set by the customer, but also raised the questions that worried them. "Entombment" by Caravaggio is also an image of incredible tragic power. And Carlo Crivelli's Lamentation is one of the most ecstatic paintings of the early Italian Renaissance ...

The title emphasizes the theme of eternity, but presents it as a plot that unfolds in time ...

Zelfira Tregulova: That is why we build the exposition traditionally - in chronology, from the works of the 12th century to the 18th century. By the way, the second most time-honored work in the exhibition is an icon depicting Francis of Assisi, painted shortly after his canonization in 1228, that is, half a century after his death. This is a kind of hommage to Pope Francis I, who was the first among the popes to take the name of this saint. If it had not been for the meeting between Francis I and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, during which the idea of ​​exchanging exhibitions arose, there would not have been an incredible opportunity to see the treasures of the Pinakothek in Moscow. But we are ready to be no less generous by sending our collection to the Vatican.

Are the contours of the reciprocal project that the Tretyakov Gallery will present in the Pinakothek in 2017 already outlined?

Zelfira Tregulova: It is clear that we will talk about the interpretation of biblical and evangelical subjects in Russian art. Initially, we planned to show the works of artists of the XIX - early XX century. At this time, the plots of the Holy Scriptures became the theme of an easel painting, an occasion to think about the most important humanistic problems. First of all, we are talking about the paintings of Alexander Ivanov, "Calvary" by Nikolai Ge, the canvas "Christ in the Desert" by Ivan Kramskoy.

Are Natalia Goncharova's works planned to be shown at the Pinakothek?

Zelfira Tregulova: Oh sure. And the "Evangelists", and images of the Mother of God, archangels from our collection. Basically, we plan to bring works from the Tretyakov Gallery, plus a few works from the collection of the Russian Museum, and perhaps regional museums.

Will icon painting be?

Zelfira Tregulova: Most likely. Arkady Ippolitov proposed a very interesting topic within the framework of this exhibition. It can be designated as "Alexander Ivanov and" The Transfiguration of "Raphael". Now we are thinking over how to include icon painting in this context.

Pope Francis I loves contemporary art, are there any plans to exchange exhibitions of contemporary art?

Zelfira Tregulova: Not yet.

How to get to the exhibition and how long does the session last?

When I tried to book tickets on the Tretyakov Gallery website for the Roma Aeterna exhibition at least for January 31st, an inscription appeared in response: "There are no tickets." Is there any hope for an "extra ticket" at a triple price?

Zelfira Tregulova: We announced ticket sales on October 25th. Within three days, all tickets until December 31 were sold, after which we suspended the sale of tickets on the Internet. Tickets for January and February will be on sale online from mid-December. As well as for the Aivazovsky exhibition, we will sell part of the tickets at the box office of the Engineering Building on the day of the session. We will limit the number of tickets per session. At this exhibition, we cannot receive as many visitors as at the exhibitions of Serov or Aivazovsky. The last one was watched by about 600 thousand people.

How many tickets will there be for the session?

Zelfira Tregulova: I think no more than 100 tickets for one session. Considering the tickets sold on the Internet, 30-40 tickets for each session at the box office ... Let's see how many viewers will be optimal. The exhibition requires concentration of attention and silence. We bought special equipment for the guides, which allows them to speak softly into the microphone, and the listeners will have headphones.

After 45 minutes, will all visitors have to leave the hall?

Zelfira Tregulova: No, why? First, the session is not 45 minutes. We start up every half hour with the expectation that the audience who entered earlier went into the next hall. We don't kick anyone out. I think that one hour of very concentrated attentive viewing is enough to view this exhibition.

Is an educational program planned?

Zelfira Tregulova: There will be a series of lectures and two cycles of film screenings: there will be films that have not been shown in Russia.

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What was brought from the Vatican

The 42 rarities that came from the Vatican represent Italian art from seven centuries, from the 12th to the 18th century inclusive.

The exhibition includes works from the late Romanesque era, such as the 13th century icon "St. Francis of Assisi".

Among the works of the Gothic era there is a wonderful work by Pietro Lorenzetti, one of the Siena masters of the 14th century, and, for example, part of the altarpiece, with scenes from the life of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker by Gentile da Fabriano. Or with scenes from the life of St. Nicholas, painted by Fra Beato Angelico, the great Florentine of the early Renaissance.

The exhibition presents works by artists from Ferrara, Venice (Carlo Crivelli and Giovanni Bellini), Romagna (angels Melozzo da Forli), Perugia ...

Raphael's Grisailles of 1507 open the High Renaissance and Baroque exhibition. Among the masterpieces of the 16th century are paintings by Antoni Correggio and Paolo Veronese.

The 17th century is represented by Caravaggio's "Entombment" (1604), by the artists of the Academy of Carracci, and by Nicolas Poussin's painting "The Martyrdom of Saint Erasmus" (1629). The transition to modern times marks the series "Astronomical Observations" (1711) by Donato Cresti, an artist from Bologna.

The Vatican Museums brought to Russia the best part of their collection - 42 paintings of the 12th-18th centuries. These are the works of Giovanni Bellini, Melozzo da Forli, Perugino, Raphael, Caravaggio, Guido Reni, Guercino, Nicolas Poussin.

“Never before have the Vatican Museums exported such a significant number of outstanding works from the permanent exhibition at the same time, so the exhibition will become an event not only for Russia and Europe, but for the whole world,” said Zelfira Tregulova, general director of the museum.

Giovanni Bellini. Lamentation over Christ with Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus and Mary Magdalene. C. 1471-1474
Oil on wood. 107 × 84 cm. Vatican Museums.
Photo: Vatican Museums

The exhibition opens with the image of "Christ Blessing" of the 12th century, which has never been exhibited in temporary exhibitions before and has never left the Vatican. The next in chronology is the work of Margaritone d'Arezzo "St. Francis of Assisi" of the 13th century.

Visitors will then be able to see “Jesus Before Pilate” by Pietro Lorenzetti, predella telling stories from the life of Nicholas the Wonderworker. Frescoes depicting angels by Melozzo da Forlì are exhibited separately. The paintings by this artist were removed from the dome of the apse during the rebuilding of the church of Santi Apostoli in Rome.

Two paintings belong to the heyday of the Renaissance: The Miracles of St. Vincenzo Ferrer by Ercole de Roberti, one of the most interesting works of the greatest master of the Ferrara school, and Lamentation by the Venetian Giovanni Bellini. There are no works of both in Russia. The High Renaissance, that is, the 16th century, is represented by the masterpieces of Perugino, Raphael, Correggio and Paolo Veronese.

Papal Rome reached its greatest power in the 17th century, in the Baroque era, and the papal collections represent the painting of this particular century most fully and brilliantly. The masterpiece of this time at the exhibition is Caravaggio's Entombment. The altarpiece of Nicolas Poussin "The Martyrdom of Saint Erasmus", the artist's largest work, was written especially for St. Peter's Basilica. This work was one of the most famous paintings of the cathedral and was admired by many Russian artists who lived in Rome.

Guido Reni. Saint Matthew and the angel. C. 1620
Canvas, oil. 85 × 68 cm. Photo: Vatican Museums

The Baroque era also includes the works of the caravaggists and artists of the Bologna school (Lodovico Carracci, Guido Reni, Guercino), perfectly represented in the papal collections.

The exhibition ends with a series of paintings from the 18th century, in fact, from the last century, when the papacy played a state role. This series of Bolognese by Donato Creti is devoted to astronomical observations and logically completes the history of Lo Stato Pontificio, the Papal Region, which soon ceased to exist and turned into the Vatican, Lo Stato della Città del Vaticano.

The press service of the gallery said that by now all tickets for December have been sold out. The new batch of tickets will go on sale only in the middle of the month. Visitors will enter the halls every half hour, while the time during which they can be at the exhibition is not limited.

All tickets are already sold out until mid-December

Visitors to the exhibition

Moscow. November 25. site - An exhibition of paintings from the Vatican Pinakothek Roma Aeterna, who first came to Russia, opens on Friday at the State Tretyakov Gallery in Lavrushinsky Lane.

“Never before have the Vatican Museums exported such a significant number of outstanding works from the permanent exhibition at the same time, so the exhibition will become an event not only for Russia and Europe, but for the whole world,” said Zelfira Tregulova, General Director of the Tretyakov Gallery.

Especially for this project, the Vatican Museums will present in Russia the best part of their collection - 42 paintings of the 12th-18th centuries. Among them are works by Giovanni Bellini, Melozzo da Forli, Perugino, Raphael, Caravaggio, Guido Reni, Guercino, Nicolas Poussin. According to the deputy director of the Vatican Museums, Barbara Yatta, the exhibition reflects all stages of the artistic development of painting.

The entrance to the exhibition is carried out by sessions; tickets can be purchased at the box office and on the official website of the museum. At the moment, all tickets for December are sold out, the press service of the gallery noted, a new batch of tickets will go on sale in mid-December. In addition, as previously reported, from January, in order to fight speculators, tickets to the exhibition will be named.

The museum noted that visitors will enter the halls, while the time during which they can be at the exhibition is not limited, as was the case at the Aivazovsky exhibition. "So far there will be no time limits for staying at the exhibition. As practice shows, usually an hour is enough for viewers to watch the exposition. At 10:00 the first session will begin on the" long "days of the gallery, on" short "days the State Tretyakov Gallery is open until 18:00 , the beginning of the last session - at 16:30 ", - explained in the press service.

The exhibition opens with the XII century image of Christ the Blessing, which has never been exhibited in temporary exhibitions before and has never left the Vatican. It is an example of the unity of Christianity, since it was created even before the schism, and demonstrates the common roots of Italian and Russian art. Next in chronology is the 13th century work by Margaritone d "Arezzo" St. Francis of Assisi. It is known for being one of the earliest depictions of the saint. In the same room, works by Gothic masters, very rare in Russian collections, are shown. Among them "Jesus before Pilate "Pietro Lorenzetti, two predella telling stories from the life of Nicholas the Wonderworker, Archbishop of Lycia.

Frescoes depicting angels by Melozzo da Forlì are exhibited separately. The paintings by this artist were removed from the dome of the apse during the rebuilding of the church of Santi Apostoli in Rome.

High Renaissance, 16th century, represented in the exhibition by works by Perugino, Raphael, Correggio and Paolo Veronese.

Also, viewers will see "The Entombment" by Caravaggio and the largest work of Nicolas Poussin, the altarpiece "The Martyrdom of St. Erasmus", written especially for St. Peter's Basilica. The exposition is continued by the works of the caravaggists and artists of the Bologna school Lodovico Carracci, Guido Reni, Guercino.

Roma Aeterna is part of a large project: at the beginning of 2018, the Vatican will host a reciprocal exhibition, a significant part of its exhibits will be works of Russian painting on Gospel subjects from the collection of the Tretyakov Gallery.

Arkady Ippolitov

Curator, art critic. Curator of the Hermitage's engraving department. Author of the books “Especially Lombardy. Images of Italy XXI "and" Only Venice. Images of Italy XXI ". Curator of exhibition projects - including Ilya and Emilia Kabakov, Robert Mapplethorpe, Giovanni Piranesi.

© Igor Starkov

- About last year's exhibition "Palladio in Russia", which you curated, you said that three centuries of Russian architecture are concentrated in it. What is concentrated in the project "Masterpieces of the Vatican Pinakothek", which will be exhibited at the Tretyakov Gallery in November?

- In the Vatican Pinacoteca, seven centuries of the history of the Papal State are concentrated. You don't even need to talk about what Rome means to Russia. The exhibition is a kind of explanation of the idea “Moscow is the third Rome”, with which we have been living for the fifth century. Our project has a subtitle "Roma Aeterna" - "Eternal Rome". The institute of papacy, founded by the Apostle Peter in the 1st century, connects European civilization with the ancient world. This is one of the few connections that has survived to this day.

The Vatican Museums are similar to the old royal collections of the Louvre and the Hermitage, but at the same time they are very different from them. Each great collection showcases the history of mankind with many schools and countries. And the Vatican Museums are a museum of the history of Rome and Roman art. This collection could be called a museum of the city, but what a city! The Vatican Art Gallery is relatively small - it contains about 500 works - and was only opened in 1932. At the same time, almost all of the paintings come from churches and collections in Rome and the Papal States - it turned out to be a regional gallery. However, if we remember that this region is the state of the head of the Catholic world, then this immediately changes the matter.

The exhibition begins with Christ the Blessing, the earliest 12th century Roman icon, heavily influenced by Byzantium. She keeps memories of the unity of Orthodoxy and Catholicism, shows the single root from which both Italian and Russian art grows, explains why all this takes place in the Tretyakov Gallery.

"St. Francis ", Margaritone d'Arezzo, 1270-1280

© Vatican Pinakothek

- And what picture will be the last in the historical perspective? Caravaggio?

The latter is much more interesting, it belongs to the 18th century. This is a series of works by Donato Creti "Astronomical Observations" - eight paintings in one frame, images of the planets of the solar system known at that time. The paintings were painted for Pope Clement XI, in order to persuade him to give money for the astronomical laboratory in Bologna. This is how the whole history of the European spirit appears here: from Christ Pantokrator, the ruler of the Universe, to the Universe observed through a telescope.

The most important work - a masterpiece that influenced the history of all world painting - is just Caravaggio, his "Entombment". There will be many other significant things. For example, "Saint Francis" by Margaritone d'Arezzo of the 13th century, without which no history textbook can do. The work is interesting not only for its artistic merit, but also for its historical significance: it is one of the first images of the saint who changed all European thinking. Perhaps this is his portrait.

There is a thing extraordinarily esoteric and graceful - Ercole de Roberti's predella "The Miracles of St. Vincenzo Ferreri", recognized as one of the most sophisticated works of the Renaissance. There are angels who can be called the most famous angels in the world - three frescoes by Melozzo da Forlì. These are things that almost never leave Rome, and Zelfira Tregulova and I, when we managed to get them, were absolutely happy. Of course, not everything was given according to the preliminary list, but I was counting on that: the Tretyakov Gallery, and with it Moscow and Russia, received the most important things.

- It is interesting to build inter-museum relationships - a bit like a poker strategy.

- To some extent, it is always like that. We proceed from how it will be better, but it turns out as always. In this case, the most coveted items were received, including two grand "Lamentation" - Crivelli and Bellini. Any Bellini is wonderful, but our work is simply extraordinary.

- In January, at a press conference, Mrs. Tregulova in every possible way that this project became possible thanks to two people: Putin and Pope Francis. Should it be understood as a political gesture?

- Any exhibition can be thought of as a political gesture. Yes, it's no secret that this is the result of negotiations between specific individuals, but for me the main thing here is artistic value. Moscow will receive for several months what it could not even dream of.

The Miracles of St. Vincenzo Ferreri, 1473 (detail), Ercole de Roberti. Notable, among other things, for its accurate depiction of architecture - majestic, but not overwhelming

- Why is all this shown in the Tretyakov Gallery, which is still known as a museum of Russian art?

- Moscow is the third Rome. The Tretyakov Gallery provides national art in the same way as the Pinakothek offers Roman art. So, despite all the differences, both museums have a certain similarity with each other. At the exhibition we can see a lot of parallels: Rome and the Pinakothek meant a lot to Russian artists, Poussin's Vatican paintings were more than famous in Russia, many were copied.

- How do you plan to exhibit your masterpieces in a complex building in Lavrushinsky Lane?

- Our architect was Sergei Tchoban, and he built the space, endowing it with a certain semantics. The first room with early painting is made octagonal, which allows you to show everything, concentrating on individual objects or entire groups. The main hall, which will house the most important works - "The Martyrdom of Saint Erasmus" by Poussin, "Entombment" by Caravaggio and two little Raphael, - is planned like St. Peter's Basilica.

- You are an employee of the Hermitage, but the Vatican project is being exhibited by the Moscow Museum. Mikhail Piotrovsky said that St. Petersburg is a puritanical city, and Moscow is more suitable for, I quote, "tough works of contemporary art and eroticism." What do you think about it?

- Everything my director says is true a priori. But I think you are misinterpreting his words a little. He meant that Petersburg is an incredibly stylish city, while in Moscow one can feel freer. The first official exhibition of Kabakov in Russia was held in Russia in 2004 at the Hermitage - for some reason everyone forgot about it. Mapplethorpe was exhibited here first, there were many other radical projects. But style has an impact, and so other cities can act a little more radically.

Fresco "Angel with Viola", Melozzo da Forli, 1480. Was painted for the Basilica of Santi Apostoli in Rome. After a serious reconstruction of the church, many of da Forlì's frescoes were lost, but the angels were saved - and at the beginning of the 18th century they went to the Vatican

© Vatican Pinakothek

In my opinion, an exhibition from the Vatican is as much a fact of life in modern Moscow as exhibitions of contemporary artists. They always try to impose some kind of historical stamps on art, but, in general, it denies linear development. Because each work of art is torn out of its context, which, of course, is conditioned by, and, having escaped, begins to acquire many other contexts. I have done many exhibitions that prove that they are equally modern. We must know and take into account the context - to know what the Renaissance is, what it means. But in any case, our dialogue with a work of art is precisely a dialogue.

You have been working at the Hermitage since 1978. In the Soviet Union, the museum had an edifying function; in the 1990s, the concept of a supermuseum was born, which serves as a landmark, like the Guggenheim in Bilbao; now, in the 21st century, a technological breakthrough continues with iPhones and virtual reality. How does it feel to witness such a change?

Each time it becomes more and more interesting. Sokurov came up with a metaphor for the ark, and this is fair enough: in the very walls of the Winter Palace there is a certain inviolability that gives that very feeling of the ark. And the time in the ark is the same, and it does not happen that one era seemed better and the other worse.

Museums are needed, and in the same XX century, parallel to modernism, the idea of ​​conservation developed, which turned out to be much more radical than in the most classical eras, which dealt with the past mercilessly. Despite all the declarations that remained mostly in theory, museums are developing modernism. Today there are more and more classical museums, and the further they go, the stronger they are. Museums will definitely preserve their structure and protect it. Despite the fact that all museums strive for as much openness as possible - to ideas, to the public, to opportunities - there is also a certain fear. The museum wants to be popular. What is popularity? The most popular things are Disneyland and McDonald's, towards which contemporary art has long since taken a step. The next question is for museums.

Astronomical Observations, Donato Creti, 1711. The painting was indeed painted to encourage Pope Clement XI to build an observatory

© Vatican Pinakothek

- Is this a certain temptation?

Of course. It is not only necessary to fight with it, but it is necessary to be aware of it. However, I think that the classical museum will remain in its positions. Even the most desperate contemporary art always dreams of getting into a museum, and a classic one.

- Well, how do you feel about multimedia exhibitions?

I do not like it when technologies are mixed with originals in the same space - when a picture hangs and photographs of its fragment in a huge magnification are unfolded here. The audience loses its sense of reality and is distracted just by a fragment. At the Vatican exhibition, we abandoned detailed explications, trying to reduce the interference of third-party objects and making it possible for the works themselves to express themselves.

- Where, in your opinion, is there such an abundance of texts at all exhibitions today?

I noticed for a long time that at exhibitions everyone likes to read, and in books - on the contrary, to look at pictures. The most sophisticated audience reacts this way, and I use it a lot. There are exhibitions that imply reading - at our exhibition, texts will play a purely service role. Zelfira Ismailovna and I agreed on this right away, and Choban absolutely agreed with us. We will print the texts separately and provide audio guides.

Lamentation of Christ, Giovanni Bellini, 1478. In 1483, the artist was appointed official painter of the Venetian Republic

© Peter Horree / Alamy / Diomedia

For tourists, going to the museum is an easy pastime, along with shopping or the same Disneyland. What about the Hermitage? Doesn't he suffer from tourists?

He can handle them quite well. The museum cannot exist without the public, and it is interested in having the public as much as possible. On the other hand, sometimes there is an exaggeration, if the museum cannot accommodate its entire audience, then you need to think about it. The Hermitage is expanding its borders, although the public has not yet fully understood that the General Staff is part of the Hermitage. But over time it will happen.

- What do you think about the phenomenon of museum queues in Russia now? Has some Soviet tradition come to life?

There is nothing incomprehensible in this: I remember the huge queues for grandiose exhibitions in the Pushkin Museum and the Hermitage in the Soviet years.

Yes, but those were imported exhibitions, and the same "Girl with Peaches" by Serov is constantly present at the State Tretyakov Gallery's exposition.

It was grandiose: so many of his works have not been collected anywhere else - and will probably not be for another hundred years.

- What is the reason for the popularity of the exhibition?

Aivazovsky is, of course, a specific taste and phenomenon of the art market. But Serov is "our intellectual everything." No matter how scolded he is, he is a wonderful artist, and talk about the fact that he is an average European Art Nouveau is empty and superficial. He died very early, moreover, he possessed great talent and an unmistakable instinct. This is one of the few artists who has created a kind of parallelism to Russian logos and literature: Serov's painting has all the virtues of Chekhov's prose. Maybe Fedotov and Gogol still have such a parallel. This phenomenon is absolutely Russian, understandable only to those who know Russia. In addition, Serov never committed a single mistake in his life - his behavior during the 1905 revolution, his attitude to modern painting, an absolute premonition of expressionism and the avant-garde ... His drawings with Peter the Great are great and grandiose works, which from a formal point of view views are more modern and in tune with our time than futurism.

- And what is our time consonant with? On the one hand, now all museums exhibit classics, on the other, there is a rehabilitation of official Soviet art with such ambiguous precedents as in the Manege or the great Leninian artist Alexander Gerasimov in the Historical Museum. Are these attempts to correct an already corrected history? What do you think about it?

- It is possible to cancel history and correct what has been done more than once, and not only in our country. How do I feel about what is happening? What do you want me to answer? As a varied and captivating picture of contemporary art life.

"Entombment", Caravaggio, 1600-1604. Many of his paintings were rejected by customers due to the artist's deliberate refusal of the sublimity of the image. He portrays saints among the common people

© Vatican Pinakothek

Perhaps history needs some kind of starting point - it could be a museum of contemporary art with a permanent collection, but it still does not exist. About, which was promised at Khodynka by 2018, has not been heard for some time ...

There are plenty of contemporary art museums - of varying degrees of lousy and grandeur. Contemporary art is also exhibited here, in the Hermitage 20/21 project. In Moscow, it is shown by Krymsky Val and MMOMA on Petrovka and in Ermolaevsky lane. There will not be an ideal and beautiful museum: the ideal simply cannot be associated with modernity. And if you discuss it in a more specific way, then you just need to sit down, get busy and design a good museum of contemporary art.

Then let's return to the classics: if you could buy or, say, receive as a gift one of the paintings from the exhibition “Roma Aeterna. Masterpieces of the Pinakothek ”, which would you choose?

Thank God, I will not face such a question, otherwise, out of greed, I could well commit suicide. Of course, you need to take Caravaggio. But you can't remove him from the Vatican! This is a completely impossible dilemma, and it wouldn't get me right.